Flare-ups on 829 500CP

    Hello everyone, this is my first post on your forum.


    I have recently purchased a new 829 500CP from Pelam via an agent in the UK and I have to say I am a little disappointed so far.


    I purchased the lamp with two extras: the double-tie mantle adapter and a stainless steel nozzle (some of you refer to this as 'injector'?) in place of the ceramic one. Over the first two weeks of operation I wasted four mantles because the nozzle kept working loose and to tighten it meant destroying the mantle. I finally solved this by using car exhaust repair paste (Gun Gum in the UK) on the threads to seal and lock them. I also had to strip the lamp and tighten all of the components because I was losing pressure where connections to the font were not tight enough.


    Everything is now airtight and I was hoping, at last, to be able to get more than a few uses out of the lamp without taking it apart to adjust things... unfortunately that is not the case!


    The lamp works perfectly and then, sometimes on its own and sometimes if I rotate the cleaning wheel, the lamp 'flares'. By this, I mean that the mantle is engulfed in flames and no amount of spinning the cleaning wheel will clear it and I have to put the lamp out, let it cool and then clean off all the soot :explode:


    I have everything adjusted perfectly, including the distance between the jet and mixing tube, but this keeps happening. I suspect that it is something to do with the jet becoming partially blocked with soot, because I am constantly having to clean it out. I am using fresh, clean Paraffin (Kerosene) and I have flushed the tank out to ensure there is no debris getting into the jet.


    Any ideas please?


    Many thanks in advance.

    Please do not adjust your mind there is a fault in reality

    Hi there ?,


    as one of the first problems you described, this stainles-steel-nozzle is crap.
    It is an development without any engineering - otherwise someone would have recognized, that stainless steel expands more than brass while being heated. - That is the problem you already solved with GunGum (same name in Germany :naughty:)


    but this could cause further problems, as parts of gungum can be blown through the nozzle and make holes in the mantle.


    Additional to that, the Stainles steel-nozzle becomes hotter than a ceramic one, what can produse a flame-backdraft into the venturitube (making a scrumbling noise) or causing a glowing red venturitube.


    I would suggest, try a ceramic nozzle, most of your problems will probably been solved by that. :done: (and i never had to replace one until now on one of my sixteen lamps)


    Good Luck, Björn

    God created men.
    Sam Colt made them equal!

    Hi Bjorn


    Many thanks for your reply.


    I must admit that, as an engineer, I did wonder why a ceramic (clay) nozzle was shipped with the lamp as standard. I went for the stainless nozzle primarily because I wanted to use the double-tie mantle adapter and I had read that using ceramic nozzles with the adapter expanding and contracting against it would fracture it.


    I opted for the double-tie adapter hoping that the (promised) resilience to vibration would help the mantle survive being transported (in the Petromax wooden box) to and from camp sites... it did not! However... I now have a set of 10 double-tie mantles and I feel compelled to use them :rolleyes:


    Also... the Pelam site 'claims' that a stainless nozzle will increase performance (brightness).


    Anyhow... having spent the extra money and seated the nozzle and adapter securely with Gun Gum, I feel obligated to make them work. I accept your suggestion that using a ceramic nozzle and (I assume) 'normal' mantles would be more successful, but I have experienced a few evenings where the lamp has performed fine and I can turn the cleaning wheel back and forth without a single problem, so... as an engineer I think, why is this not repeatable?


    Going back to when I rinsed out the font with Paraffin, the main particles that came out looked like debris from the pump washer. I had been tempted to replace the leather pump with a rubber 'o' ring version because on my (now old) Coleman stoves I had problems with bits of leather interfering with the pump valve. I wonder whether it is leather washer debris that is fouling my jet and causing these random problems.


    I am going to clean my lamp up again and retry lighting... I will update with progress but if there is any more opinion please post.


    Many thanks and best regards,
    Tig

    Please do not adjust your mind there is a fault in reality

    Sorry... I forgot to say...


    Bjorn - you are absolutely correct about the Gun Gum causing holes in the mantle! The first few times I fired up mysterious holes appeared which I am sure were surplus bits of paste burning off and blasing through the mantle. I think that problem has now settled down, but respect to you for spotting it :hail:

    Please do not adjust your mind there is a fault in reality

    Hi Tig,


    the ceramic-nozzle belongs to this kind of lamp since the patending-year 1911, and it works quite well since then. :naughty:


    In the 1960ies and 1970ies the 500cp-Petromax was delivered to several german civil-force units with ceramic nozzle and double-tie holder, and it worked properly for years. The stainless steel-nozzle is an invention of the US-group "Britelit", who also sells Petromax-lanterns, and they did claim, it would produce more light - this is physically impossible, the "more-energy" results in another material, saving more heat - this could cause trouble to the lamp, but can definetly not produce more light. This can only be solved by the kind of mantle and finetuning of the fuel-air-mixture. :done:


    Thanks to the compliment, but i did not spot the gungum-surplus-problem, this is well known here in this forum, spottet by a lot of users. :rauch:


    This debris-parts you found in your lamp are coal-deposits from the upper vaporizer, what is normal after several hours of work.
    The pumpleathers work mostly well and a lot better than this o-ring version from Petromax. Most collectors change back the o-ring-pump to leather as one of the first steps when getting a new old lamp.
    A bit of grease or vaseline on the leather wil help to work quite well. :done:


    Best regards, Björn

    God created men.
    Sam Colt made them equal!

    Einmal editiert, zuletzt von Benz-ihn ()

    Hi Tigang,
    congrats on owning your first petromax. With time you will love this lantern,but you have to" tune "it to your liking.


    Bjorn's theory about expansion is right on,it seems that the steel streches open the brass. I had nozzles just fall out while the lamp was running. I solved this problem by drilling the mixing chamber at 3 symetrical points ,just untill the bit makes a (counter sink)in the nozzle. Then thread the holes in the mixing chamber(8/32)and put 3 set screws in to lock it in place.


    I used stainless screws because it seems to fuse to the nozzle when it gets red.
    It hasn't moved 1nano metre since.


    About your flame -up ,check that your injector is sealing properly when tight,and try turning the hand wheel quicker.Also maximum air preassure ,see what happens.


    Hope this helps, M030

    ...and he guided them with the SUN by day and a PETROMAX by night......Mysticman030

    Hi again Bjorn


    Regarding your comment on lubricating the leather washer on the pump, I have been using Castor Oil as recommended by Petromax from day one. You will be amused to know that it took me a long time to find Castor Oil having tried 7 chemist shops in my area to no avail. When I searched online I found out that chemists were tending not to stock it because some pregnant women had been using it to bring on early labour. I therefore telephoned the largest chemist chain to me (Boots) and asked them to order me some in. The assistant asked what I wanted it for, to which I replied (in my deepest male voice): (1) I am a man and (2) I am not, to my knowledge, pregnant. After the laughter had subsided the assistant asked what I actually wanted it for and I said, "to lubricate the leather pump washer on a Petromax paraffin pressure lantern". After more laughter the assistant said he would order me a bottle immediately because nobody could have made up a story like that :D


    Regarding the stainless nozzle... whilst Brytelyte claim the invention is theirs, Pelham sell the item under the Petromax brand on their site... Pelham Stainless Nozzle and state "This nozzle last a lifetime. The lantern produces about 10 - 20% more light."... so, shame on Pelham for not telling the truth! Actually, the reason I bought it in the end was because I thought it would last longer.


    Out of interest, I have found the double-tie adapter is not perfect. The ceramic support at the bottom does not line up with the centre of the nozzle, so you end up with a banana-shaped mantle like this...


    (see attachment)


    I have noticed that pictures of its deployment on the BryteLyte site look the same.


    Lastly, my lantern fired up fine just now... I think it is something to do with the injector. By the way, thank you Mysticman030, my injector was a bit loose... maybe that needs Gun Gum too! The only thing I cannot seem to stop coming loose is the mixing chamber: it constantly comes loose and eventually I have to re-bend the compression band that the screw presses on because the sharp end of the adjustment screw digs into the mixing chamber. This has to be a bad design!

    haha, that oil-Story is soooooo coool!!! :done: :applaudit:


    The quality of some spareparts of today is hm, let me say "interesting":kotz:


    But Pelam works for it... still all parts of nowerdays production are produced in China, but were assembled in Germany again.


    I think, the stainless nozzle will soon be out of stock as they will be not produced any longer, the next problem is the size of the mantles, as they become too small while sinthering, like yours.


    Normally a 500hk/cp mantle has the size like a gulfball or a bit bigger... :done:


    Until soon, Björn

    God created men.
    Sam Colt made them equal!

    Einmal editiert, zuletzt von Benz-ihn ()

    Bjorn


    I tried tying the bottom of the mantle lower on the support but, when burning-in, they just stretch too much and break. I was advised not to tie the bottom of the mantle too tight to allow it to shrink whilst burning-in, but the size of (genuine) Petromax mantles seems to be getting smaller :traurig:


    All that said... the light output is still impressive enough to attract comment from neighbouring campers, but I have been most embarrassed by the impromptu 'bursting into flames' that I started this thread with.


    Going back to basics... I read that the distance between the jet and mixing tube should be slightly more than the gauge on the tool supplied to get better performance. The tools has a gradient on it and I wondered whether one should aim for a distance about half way along (albeit we are speaking about fractions of a mm).


    Many thanks
    Tig

    Please do not adjust your mind there is a fault in reality

    Hi Tig,


    I know ind like this lanterns since my army-time, for i have to say that i had been one of the last classes, that has seen Petromax-lanterns.


    German Army is swapping them out - too old and too complicated... :naughty:


    But it is just great to see faces of people, camping next to one when you start the lamp :done:


    For 500cp/Hk Petromax-lamps the best distance between jet and mixing tube is between 14mm and 16mm, also it brings results to turn the paddlescrew in the mixingtube by a plier when lamp is working :rauch:


    And be careful, possessing one petromax can cause a feaver of collecting and using some more :naughty:


    Last winter i illuminated a whole Museum by old lamps and lanterns - four years ago, i only wanted ONE petromax because of remembering my army-time :naughty:


    Good luck, Björn

    God created men.
    Sam Colt made them equal!



    Ha ha - I bought a Teepee tent and was looing for a lighting source ..and decided to get a petromax after watching youtube videos ...


    Got a 500hk ..discovered that when it burned it was the most "cosy" thing outside in the summer evenings ... Later i got a 828er ..and the a 250 ..maby a 821 ..i think ..Now i dont want any more..unless i spot one one some flea market..hmm or in the classified or on the bay :-)
    There is just some magic about these things - so simple nice mecanics so nostalgic ...i dont know


    "btw i fell for the two holw mantel holder - I however managed to bend it to center the ceramic holder down under the steel nozzel but but .. the damn thing keep loosening when pumping ..and the mantels did not fit to good .. back to basic ..but i must admit i have had a few ceramic nozzels fall out or getting loose when pumping laso before i got the steel one .. ..next i destroyed a ceramic one trying to tighten it ... so i actually use the steel one now ..


    But i see pelam has a : Nozzle HK250 (High quality, oxyd ceramic): Cross section dimension of the winding Ø : 22mm This nozzle is as hard as a rubin.


    Is this any good ?????

    Hi Meier


    I am tempted to straighten my adapter, but was concerned that doing so would shatter the bottom ceramic cone as it is that part of the (thick) metal rod that needs straightening... how did you manage it?


    I can assure you that if you apply Gun Gum (or your local equivalent of exhaust sealer) to the threads you will not have a problem with things working loose.


    Best regards
    Tig

    Please do not adjust your mind there is a fault in reality

    Apologies... I almost forgot... what is this new material they are using for the nozzle? is it better than Stainless Steel and do they make it for the 500 lamp?


    Thanks
    Tig

    Please do not adjust your mind there is a fault in reality

    Hi guys,


    yes, this white oxyceramic- nozzles are very hard and durable, you can cut glas with them - no joke!


    but they are only available for 250HK-size. :traurig:


    Short time they were also available for 500HK, i got one of them, but i do not now why they were not produced any further.
    (I guess because of they were too good and would never break - what has a negative influence on trading spareparts - but thats only a guess :rauch:)


    Shadowgames inside my big medieval tent are also famous, friends of us had a medieval wedding and all men were waiting outside while the bride was helped by her friends into her corsage to the shine of a 500HK


    Outside all men were totally silence :naughty: enjoying a beer and the sight :applaudit: :applaudit: :applaudit:


    Best regards, Björn

    God created men.
    Sam Colt made them equal!

    Einmal editiert, zuletzt von Benz-ihn ()

    Brilliant story about the wedding :respekt: ... did the bride ever find out about her unintentional performance? :)


    What a shame about the oxyceramic nozzles! It seems so stupid that they stopped making those and yet continue to sell the stainless steel ones that are equally indestructible :wallbash:


    We are going camping again this weekend and I am tempted to try to bend my double-tie mantle adapter into a better alignment. The only issue is that I think bending the metal near the ceramic bottom holder will crack it. What do you think?


    Cheers
    Tig

    Please do not adjust your mind there is a fault in reality

    Einmal editiert, zuletzt von tigang ()

    Ok guys... my last post for a while as we are going off for a week's camping tomorrow... in the rain probably :traurig:


    Anyway... good news is that I bent the double-tie adapter so that it now is in perfect alignment with the centre of the nozzle. Bad news is that it took three mantles before I got one without a rip in. Problem is that if I tie the threads too tight on the bottom support the mantle rips. However, these genuine Petromax mantles burn in so small that the bottom hole only just covers the bottom support. I have to tie it loosely to let it contract or else it breaks!


    Are there any larger mantles that would do the job better?


    Many thanks
    Tig

    Please do not adjust your mind there is a fault in reality

    Hi Tig,


    drop me a PN and I will sent you some single-tie mantles, next time I'm in London.
    You'll be surprized what a single-tie mantle could withstand.


    Cheers,
    Wilm



    PS.: Just returned over the big pond

    si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses

    It seems a long time since I last posted... and it has... 1065 days to be precise.


    I have to say that my experiences with my 829 500CP have been, at best, adequate but short lived. I do not believe that I have ever owned such an unreliable and temperamental piece of kit. Despite tightening everything after every use, it still spontaneously bursts into flames and often leaves me the laughing stock of the campsite or, if at home, the dinner party.


    Two years ago, after the wretched thing burst into flames just as I was about to eat, I put it back into its beautiful box and confined it to the back of a cupboard. It has not seen the light of day since.


    Then, yesterday evening, I suddenly had the desire to give it another chance. I took it out, gave it a thorough clean, tightened everything and even put a new [double-tie] mantle on (I have the support bracket)...


    Mantle one: I must have tied it too tight to the bottom support bracket... it split in the middle when burning it in.


    Mantle two: same again.


    Mantle three: I cannot believe this... same again!


    Went to bed and left it until this evening.


    Mantle four: did not bother tying it at the bottom... but it still split at the top when I burnt it. Arghhhhhhhhhh!


    Good news is that I did not have any spontaneous combustion.


    Bad new is that I cannot even get the horrible thing to light after wasting four over-priced double-tie mantles!


    Oh well... the weather is really nice here in the UK.


    As for the lamp... I will put it back into the cupboard and return in another two or three years :D

    Please do not adjust your mind there is a fault in reality

    since about 3 years went by, actual quality of petromax (pelam) is okay ! I have checked this with a brand new petromax 829, because I sell these lamps now, and I wanted to have perfect quality.
    I looked at the lamp very closely and she worked very fine with kerosene several hours. no problems with her.
    perhaps your lamp, maybe some time in the shelfs of the british distributor, was of poorer quality ...

    Dear tigang,
    where are you from in England?
    I`m in exmouth now (south devon) If your are close to exmouth we can meet us if you want.
    I`ve got serveal matels with me including the goldtop from coleman. Its a singlemantle but works very well on the HK500.
    Try these mantels and you will see it will work fine I promise you :-)


    Kind regards


    Bernd